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Lounge => General Anime and Manga => Topic started by: MisterCat on January 09, 2008, 11:48:10 pm

Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: MisterCat on January 09, 2008, 11:48:10 pm
Big in 2008: Gothic Lolitas and Godzilla | The Japan Times Online (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/mail/fo20080110pm.html)
The Japan Times Online provides daily English-language news reports and features on Japan, covering national news, business news, sports news, plus analysis and information on entertainment, art, leisure and communities in Tokyo and other major cities.

:smoke:

=^..^=
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: SleepyD on January 10, 2008, 01:38:38 am
QuoteU.S. anime pronounced dead

U.S. pop culture industry magazine ICv2 Guide to Anime noted last year that U.S. sales of anime DVDs declined by 20 percent in 2007, while some sources inside the home-video market place the real figure closer to a whopping 50 percent.

That's scary news for anime companies on both sides of the Pacific who are either: scrambling to adapt to a changing market; hiking up retail prices; or simply shutting up shop altogether.

You don't need a crystal ball to figure out that 2008 is likely to see this unsettling roller-coaster ride continue and the only way off it is to solve the digital-age equivalent of the riddle of the Sphinx: How to make people pay for all that content they download off the Internet for free?

it is unsettling news.

Geneon already has said they will stop distributing anime.  A few months ago, that news sparked lots of debate regarding fansubs and discussions on sub/dub.  
Seriously, people, if you don't like the dub, watch it subbed.  You can do it, you know. The DVD allows for sub and dub!!

Argh, just thinking about the people that download gigs and gigs of stuff without buying the DVDs makes me angry.  I can't even think up a good argument right now. >_<  Look, I don't even have a job/steady income and I buy DVDs! Admittedly not very many, but I buy freakin boxsets/thinpaks when I can!

rawr, discuss, discuss plz. maybe that'll get the brain juices going.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Myrdin on January 10, 2008, 01:46:32 pm
I buy animes when I really like them. The problem is that there aren't much that I really like. The market is totally flooded with the same generic shit. People need to stop viewing anime as an entirely isolated category of entertainment. If there were six slightly different transformers movies made simultaneously do you think they would all sell well? No! They would all do terribly. So why should the hundreds of slightly different mecha animes be any different? Or magic girl animes. Or other generic animes. It pisses me off. I want to see more originality.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: SleepyD on January 10, 2008, 05:29:12 pm
I watch my fair share of "generic" anime, but there are still little gems of originality that I believe don't get the attention they deserve.  But that's another topic.

Well, in any case, I don't expect people to buy DVDs of series they don't like.  My words are directed at people who seem to believe that they shouldn't pay for anime.  Ever since Sam Goody, Inc. filed for Chapter 11 merely 2 years ago, the domestic anime industry has been in deep financial trouble.

Those complaining that DVDs are too expensive (and therefore rationalize their downloading) don't understand the state the industry in, nor do they understand the exorbitant costs of licensing anime for US distribution.  
QuoteAccording to unconfirmed report, average contemporary anime licensing starts at around $20,000 per episode and can go as high as $80,000 per episode! And adding an English dub can easily double the cost of releasing an anime series in America. ...Just getting an anime series onto American DVD may cost hundreds of thousands, or even millions, yet the series may sell only a few thousand copies...

taken from: http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1499


Maybe some of you have read this before: ANN: Editorial: An Open Letter to the Industry (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2007-11-25)
but I know this article had sparked quite a bit of discussion in the AX forums and other places.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: CaptBrenden on January 10, 2008, 06:36:35 pm
Humm, Im too vexed to discuss this too much,  but everyone knows my views on priracy.  Id rather not have been right this time, but to all those people that said that their downloading anime and such doesnt hurt the industry that much... well you were wroung. thanks for ruining it for everyone else.

I personaly have 2 300 disc CD cased FILLED with anime, as well as a tone thats not been taken out of the dvd cases yet.  Ive been needing to buy a new case for that...  I support the industry.  Being someone who wants to become an animator some day, I understand if no one buys, no one gets paid.  No one gets paid, people go to a differnt buisness and line of work.  Its simple cause and effect.

However, the cost of licencing for dubbing does seem rather steep.  Maybe when the demand for licencing drops due to the lack of profit, japan animation companies will drop their costs as well.  That would revitalize the industry for a short while.. as long as people start buying DVDs again.  

On that note, since you must cease distro on licenced subs, wouldnt putting those subs on youtube be against those laws? I know alot of people still watching subbed anime on youtube that has been released in the US.  That seems enough like distrobution to warrent Youtube to take it down just like they do to episodes of Cops or South Park.

Another factor to concider, it the quality of the product released in the US.  I personaly think there are some worthwhile dubs out there, but the quality of alot of them is rather low.   Seriosly,  it seems the same bad voice actors get hired time and again and dont know they suck.  You can watch the commentary and their like "oh i love what he did with his voice for this character.."  what are you on?  My ears are bleeding due to what he did with his voice for that character!   The industry needs new talent on the voice acting front.

Another possible idea is to improve the SUBS on the DVDs. The sub quality is rather poor compiared to the effort, attention to detail, and such of the fansubs (at least the ones NOT done by speed subbers)  so I can see why someone would rather keep their fansubs instead of buy a DVD and watch the subs on it (if your the wapanese type that cant stand to watch a show in your native lanquage)

anyhow, im in a piss poor mood thanks to this.

I fucking hate pirates.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Myrdin on January 10, 2008, 07:12:55 pm
I can understand why you might be frustrated but I honestly do not think it's the pirates fault. It's just a convenient excuse. The vast majority of anime being imported is total crap by any standards but the anime communities. The stuff that isn't is being poorly marketed (if at all). That's why it doesn't sell in the US.

A very similar problem is being faced by the recording industry. They blamed it on downloading, launched a huge campaign to stop it, met with moderate success, and didn't see the tiniest increase in sales. Why? Because downloading is not the problem. Musicians (and Engineers) are making crappy recordings of crappy songs by crappy bands.
Nine Inch Nails' new album sold incredibly well and they released half the album for free months beforehand. If downloading was really the problem here then that should have cut their sales, not increased them. There are many more cases of recordings selling much better after being released for free.
The legendary sounds of the "vintage" preamps is mostly myth. Modern recordings are simply over compressed, over edited crap. I am trained as a sound engineer so these matters interest me even more than anime. The parallels are obvious.

From a personal perspective, I will ONLY buy music, movies, etc. I have previewed beforehand. Fansubs provide that preview. Most of my animation collection was purchased after downloading the content for free (aka, piracy).
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: CaptBrenden on January 10, 2008, 08:08:12 pm
Well yeah, Ive never bought anything Ive never seen before. Well maybe something ive read as a manga prior but I belive in viewing it first.  BUT, i find that for the most part, thats rare.  You and I are people with interests in the industrys we speak of. As a result we seem to support the industries by purchasing the material that we like...

However anime is a little less like music.  I know many people who would only watch ANYTHING once.  Let alone watch it and then buy if for sake of supporting that which they like.   I shall perform a quick test.. I m going to message a buddy of mine and just ask him if he would buy a show he liked after having seen it free, or downloaded if for free online and see what he says.

Quote
Saber says:
question:  If you could watch shows, or download shows for free online, would you after watching said show, go out and buy the DVD?
Mr. B says:
depends on the show
Mr. B says:
if it's a show I can watch over and over again (simpson, futurama,) then yeah, if it's an epic show, like Lost or Sopranos, probably not
Mr. B says:
a season easily costs $75
Mr. B says:
if I've already seen it, I'd be hard justified to pay that price to see it aian
Mr. B says:
again


I think that pretty much supports my statement.  The epic, high quality shows like Gunslinger Girl or Black Lagoon, or Fate Stay Night for example, likely wouldnt be purchased.  I hear it all the time from people. Why buy when I can get it for free?  I belive sampling is good, but being able to watch the entire series... that drasticly reduces the sellability to the average consumer.  

But personaly, I think your view is rather pessimistic.  Not everything come out of japan is crap.  Hell I wouldnt even say the vast majority as you state.  But Ill bet you that if you were to look at the sales of the quote unquote "good shows" they are probobly just as effected by this latest trend.  For example: other then myself and a few odd people I asked, most everyone Ive asked about it said they wont buy the DVDs to Haruhi.  Why?  Cus they have seen it already, got the subs, and dispite not even ever seeing it in english, have already pronounced the english dubs crap simply because they're english. The only way I was able to make Nejin concider getting it was to parade the piles of swag that came with the DVDs infront of him first.  Because swag cant be pirated.  If your pirating swag, your actually boarding the import ships with a saber and blunderbus and yelling AVAST!

To be honest, its a probobly somewhere in the middle ground of the two arguments.  Piracy is partialy to blame, quality and other factors the rest of it.  You cant say its all because its crap, but you cant say its compleatly because of pirating.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on January 10, 2008, 08:25:44 pm
Well, other side of the hallway, coming through.

I understand the frustration, as well - but with the exception of DVD-rip groups (which I personally have very little respect for and almost never watch anyway), ALL (that i've seen to this date) fansubbing groups follow the unwritten law of stopping distribution after licensing. There are different levels, but one example would be a.f.k. (Always Fansubs KyoAni) - the licensed files on their tracker, ie Haruhi, Lucky Star etc, are present only with text, and the torrents removed. (Licensed by X, torrent removed) Recent trouble of this kind can also be seen in Dattebayo, which is probably THE largest and most-watched fansub group out there, where they for years have appealed to the fans to stop distributing their videos on streaming sites (youtube), and constantly been ignored - whereas they now have gone into strike and halted all productions. Having looked into this matter a bit there are striking amounts of people who ignore their request and/or taking it for another of their YHBT's (you have been trolled); and all efforts they make seem to be futile to an extent.

As such, it's apparent that it's mainly, as said before, the fault of parts of the community, and not much blame on the fansubbers.

I've never bought a single anime DVD ever in my life though, (due to this option simply not being available to me without going outside the country, since almost NOTHING gets imported), and I can imagine, with the amount of people everywhere in the world, that this is a problem for everyone living outside the major countries like US, France, Germany, Britain or whatever else country they might sell anime in (I have no idea), since they CAN'T buy anime unless they order it online - which is a hassle and includes extra shipping costs - or importing it themselves - even more hassle and more money spent/wasted.

It's a valuable view, but it's little I can do about it. But as I see it, a change is the only option for the world as a whole right now, in almost all departments. I shall wait and see what will be brought to the anime industry of this - which i HOPE will happen with all my heart.

It's not going to change my views on other aspects, though - Hollywood fatasses and the like are still worth very, very little in my eyes, and they deserve the oppression simply for not learning and still being successful while making trouble for the customers.

Oh and Cappy, my mind and my money are different things. Consideration is one thing, but I don't buy videos for "swag". And to quote,
QuoteThere is nothing like black and white in this world. Just gray.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: SleepyD on January 11, 2008, 12:25:37 am
Quote from: "NejinOniwa"
I've never bought a single anime DVD ever in my life though, (due to this option simply not being available to me without going outside the country, since almost NOTHING gets imported), and I can imagine, with the amount of people everywhere in the world, that this is a problem for everyone living outside the major countries like US, France, Germany, Britain or whatever else country they might sell anime in (I have no idea), since they CAN'T buy anime unless they order it online - which is a hassle and includes extra shipping costs - or importing it themselves - even more hassle and more money spent/wasted.

Ok, I understand your situation. I don't exactly support it, but I do understand.  And I'm sure the anime licensors/distributors don't see much of a market in your area, anyway.
....by the way, that's a really long sentence. XD; but I digress.

Whatever your views on the current quality of anime today, people are watching them, and people are enjoying them.  
I see a problem in that the majority of people who love anime here in the US are young teenagers (I'm 19 myself).  Go to a large convention and you can confirm that by just one look at the con-goers.  
The majority of these fans have grown up with the internet (and everything being free), and the majority lack a steady income.  On the other side of things, most Japanese anime fans tend to be on the older side, and hence, the companies can get them spending without the above difficulties.

Another problem that seems to always crop up in discussions such as this are the quality of dubs.  Honestly, I think they're getting much better, despite the financial troubles that are haunting the anime industry today.  With voice actors, I heard from voice actors in Anime Los Angeles that ADV and Funimation are willing to let their voice actors to get work with the other company.  So, while the pool of voice actors available is small, it is increasing, which is a good thing.  

And if I may add something about voice actors (I learned a lot about them in Anime Los Angeles)... they have a very difficult job, having to ACT (act being the key word here) purely on their voice alone.  They lack the other tools available to any other actor, in bodily gestures and facial expressions.  That said, since they are DUBBING, they have the added difficulty of matching the lip flaps.  It can be argued that this is one of the toughest things for any actor here to do well.  Add on to that a meager salary, and this job isn't all that attractive.  Again, random, passionate anime otaku can't cut it here, they need ACTING experience.  And I don't think many actors here are looking at voice acting as a job.

As for the quality of subs, the companies have responded, and I don't think the overall quality of the translations I've seen are lacking.  Other complaints I've heard are over things that the companies can't possibly do (e.g. using different colored subtitles).  I heard that some companies are employing the "multiple angle" feature available in some HD/Digital sets.  I think it was Funi that used it, one "angle" keeping the visual Japanese intact, the other "angle" containing the images edited to show english words.  I can see this feature expanded to include translation notes that many fansubs have.  (So far, I've only seen translation notes in the FLCL DVDs... although those were written on paper)
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: seth on January 29, 2008, 09:08:44 pm
All I can say is I sure hope anime wont die in North America because although I do download anime, especially ones I can't find in stores. I would much rather just buy the dvd.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NekOSaka on January 30, 2008, 10:35:41 am
Hurray for those who buy DVD's!
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Kiso on January 31, 2008, 10:08:53 am
You know, after reading all of this... I visualize DRM getting tougher... and eve more, taking it to everyone... and very very hard.

I am in the misfortune of not being able to attain anime DVD's by the conventional means (a.k.a. buy it from the store) because the local stores in my country, the ones that sell anime are closing... heck, even Sam Goody shut operations in my country, at least in malls I frequent. Then, there are the one or two small shops that are available with imported material... but often what I look for is not exactly available (usually sold out or reserved for other people). Then I have the ability to buy online, but my usually tight buged prevents me from supporting the industry I admire the most.

But this doesn't mean I go to Ytube to watch it there, or even try to go for torrent downloading... I'd rather watch anime that's "crappily" translated/subbed on TV than download take another dollar/yen/whatev from the people that work to give us something to entertain ourselves with. I will admit though, i have myself have come to have a fair share of pirated stuff... but nothing usually last long in my computer or even makes its way out of it... I delete it within a month of possession.

Heck... I rarely even watch/hear pirated material, while I watched my bought DVD of Final Fantasy Advent Children more than once every day for months. And when I felt like watching it again afterwards... I just watched it again and played with it for "instant replay" action.

If this goes on, not even the U.S. animation industry will exist... heck... nothing entertainment will exist if we (the consumers) don't shape-up. It's just a matter of time before both the legal and illegal markets break appart and everyone falls into massive boredom.

If there is a need to watch previews of stuff... they should implement sampling devices in the store, like Borders does.

Another thing that must be done is that of people appealing to their sense of moral behavior... because people like the free stuff, but would hate their stuff to be pirated or loose their jobs simply because money is not something that is returning to the company they work for. we all should learn to do the morally right thing of putting a complete stop to illegal reproduction and redistribution of material.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: SleepyD on January 31, 2008, 10:36:10 pm
Quote from: "Kiso"You know, after reading all of this... I visualize DRM getting tougher... and eve more, taking it to everyone... and very very hard.

I am in the misfortune of not being able to attain anime DVD's by the conventional means (a.k.a. buy it from the store) because the local stores in my country, the ones that sell anime are closing... heck, even Sam Goody shut operations in my country, at least in malls I frequent. Then, there are the one or two small shops that are available with imported material... but often what I look for is not exactly available (usually sold out or reserved for other people). Then I have the ability to buy online, but my usually tight buged prevents me from supporting the industry I admire the most.

I can explain that.
In January 2006, Sam Goody filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.  Sam goody also owned Musicland and Suncoast.  After that, they closed a lot of stores.

What some people don't recognize is how much money US anime companies had with Sam Goody.  
If you don't mind a little reading, here are fruits of my research in similar posts on other forums:


[ANN] 12 January 2006: Sam Goody, (Musicland and Suncoast) files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/press-release/2006-01-12/musicland-files-for-bankruptcy)

[ANN] 23 January 2006: Musicland Owes Anime Companies $8.7 million (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-01-23/musicland-owes-anime-companies-$8.7-million")

Quote"[When Musicland closed stores,] we saw our gross shipments go down by 35%. We didn't want to put as much product in that channel with the risk they'd file for bankruptcy."
--Ward Thomas, Funimation
Source 18 May 2006 (http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6336045.html?text=musicland)


Quote(Regarding massive layoffs)
"As our business has been significantly impacted by Musicland's bankruptcy filing, we are facing tightening sales conditions and are currently focusing on a cost cutting program which will structure the company for future growth without our largest customer. A number of very talented and dedicated employees have unfortunately lost their jobs through no fault of their own. CPM will be happy to assist these fine staff members find employment opportunities, so any company seeking experienced and professional employees are requested to email CPM at HR519@teamcpm.com for further details."
--John O'Donnell, Central Park Media
Source 05 June 2006 (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/23516)


Quote from: "Kiso"
But this doesn't mean I go to Ytube to watch it there, or even try to go for torrent downloading... I'd rather watch anime that's "crappily" translated/subbed on TV than download take another dollar/yen/whatev from the people that work to give us something to entertain ourselves with. I will admit though, i have myself have come to have a fair share of pirated stuff... but nothing usually last long in my computer or even makes its way out of it... I delete it within a month of possession.

Heck... I rarely even watch/hear pirated material, while I watched my bought DVD of Final Fantasy Advent Children more than once every day for months. And when I felt like watching it again afterwards... I just watched it again and played with it for "instant replay" action.

I don't really have anything against you; more the people who have a choice in the matter and choose piracy without supporting the US anime industry.

I would hate to watch something crappily subbed.  Think about it this way, if people watch crappy subs, and get the wrong idea about the anime, would there be any incentive at all to buy the DVDs? Even though fansubs get the anime out there, those fansubs that do poor jobs are doing us all a disservice.

Quote from: "Kiso"
If this goes on, not even the U.S. animation industry will exist... heck... nothing entertainment will exist if we (the consumers) don't shape-up. It's just a matter of time before both the legal and illegal markets break appart and everyone falls into massive boredom.

If there is a need to watch previews of stuff... they should implement sampling devices in the store, like Borders does.

Hm... don't think "sampling" anime really works.... I think you'd have to watch one episode at a minimum to properly "sample" an anime.  My opinion, though, based on most of the anime I really enjoy.

The US anime industry was really hurt by the Sam Goody bankruptcy, through no fault of their own.  They're still in trouble; just look at Geneon--they stopped distribution. People don't realize that piracy hurts them more than any major hollywood company with all their finances.  
If more people buy DVDs, they may be able to just scrape by these next few years.  
Quote from: "Kiso"
Another thing that must be done is that of people appealing to their sense of moral behavior... because people like the free stuff, but would hate their stuff to be pirated or loose their jobs simply because money is not something that is returning to the company they work for. we all should learn to do the morally right thing of putting a complete stop to illegal reproduction and redistribution of material.

Good idea, but it's hard to do that when downloading stuff online is so impersonal.  Just a few clicks, a little time, and boom, it's there.  No real time to think about your actions.  
With anime, I still think fansubs have their place.  I wouldn't have ever heard of Gunslinger Girl and many other anime without them. The good fansubbers, at least, pull their stuff the instant a US license is announced.  The problem arises when some random person then puts the episodes they downloaded onto other torrent databases.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: meiskool5 on February 06, 2008, 02:39:15 am
Sucks that Geneon stopped distributing anime and closed down. They did the best dubs in anime imo. I fully support the buying of DVDs over downloading them. I download anime only to preview it (and that's if I can't find a sufficent preview on a online video site) and then if I like it enough I will buy it. If not then I won't continue to download it.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Vash342 on October 24, 2009, 07:00:42 pm
I'm into the free fansubs when they come out, then I stop distributing when they become licensed.  I follow the honest rules when it comes to downloading anime.  I got Fruits basket about 3-4 years before it came out over here in the US.  I do not support piracy, but rules here in the US have changed a lot in the past 4 years because of these discussions.

I remember Mystery Science Theatre 3000, a show that first started on Comedy central and ended on Sci-Fi.  Wonderful show but its torn over the fact that Hasbro Entertainment owns a few of the seasons, but on the later ones a little text displays at the end of the credits saying keep the tapes in circulation.  I feel this is backwards from what I do right now, but still helps serve my point.  I get it when someone distributes it for no profit, and when someone can make a profit I stop and let it sit in my drawer.  I own all of the hasbro seasons in box sets, and have VHS copies that I taped off of sci-fi at home for a close to complete collection.  Because of the license agreements they made, i'm allowed to have them.

I used to run an anime club, and I had this problem where people would buy my DVD's of free distribute fansub anime from me(just to cover costs of the DVD), and people after them would too, but I would not distribute anymore.  I don't see how people can't keep up either because of RSS feeds and other instant news or notifications.

I dont' agree with piracy,and because people don't know or want to follow the rules they get crunched.  I know too many people who get there hands on a bittorrent program and just go to town even after my warnings, and try to say I told them they could.  Kind of hard after I show them a written agreement, he he he.

Also though, a counterpoint, I can't afford a 30$ DVD of 3 episodes of anime from ADV, which also has terrible dubbing anyways.  I also find it hard to justify buying a box set for 120$ from anywhere.  To me it's ridiculous, but I also am a student, father, and husband trying to make his way in the world today.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 24, 2009, 07:18:23 pm
Cheer up.
Being a pirate makes things a world easier. You get access to the Warp Zone from the start of the game, yo~ -w-

Added after 6 minutes:

That said, it does also give you the most economically powerful entities in this world as bitter enemies, so you're quite sure to be in hard.
Heh -w-
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Vash342 on October 24, 2009, 08:37:18 pm
Software pirates also drive segways.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 24, 2009, 08:47:59 pm
Oh yeah, I drive a segway, that's right, I didn't know that. I think pretty much every single one of the Pirate Party members also do, damn, straight to the point there, man! You have a knack for this!

-.-

What's your point, besides pointing out that segways are faggotry worse than WHEN I WAS?
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Vash342 on October 24, 2009, 10:15:34 pm
You were emo?  o_o
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 25, 2009, 03:25:35 am
I am utterly oblivious to how you got to that conclusion, but the enlightenment can be skipped for now. And no.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Sora on October 25, 2009, 03:54:00 am
Anyone here vote for the piracy party? If so, you are the reason Anime is dying.
P.S. Do you have any idea how hard it is to come up with an original story? All the good stories of modern times are good recycles like Harry Potter (recycle of wizard/witch stories plus High school romance) and Twilight (recycle of vampire romance/high school romance).
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 25, 2009, 04:01:49 am
Twilight isn't a good recycle, anyone who thinks so should seriously consider getting themselves run over by an old oak.

And secondly, you appear to be completely uninitiated into the world of information politics. Read up before you try too hard, boi.

Thirdly, I'm a damn writer myself, I am quite aware of the various hardships involved with the occupation, thank you very much.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 25, 2009, 12:20:42 pm
[edit] CHOCO'S RANT [/edit]

screw that idea, sora! piracy is what's helping keep anime ALIVE. all the companies that distro it in the US charge over-exuberant prices, leaving us POOR *emphasis on POOR* saps to choose: legal, broke, and having 1 dvd in our collection, or semi-legal, un-broke, and having several titles at our disposal?

"piracy" is our justice. it also opens doors to animes that would otheriwse go unnoticed. do i see any dvds of Hetalia Axis Powers on the shelves of my local FYE? no, i don't. all i see is one or two titles of anything halfway decent, mixed in with the pile of pokemon rip-offs and yugioh fucktard spinoffs. and for the grand ol' price of FORTY FUCKING DOLLARS. i can barely afford a goddamn 14 dollar rice cooker.

so no, do not DON piracy. DON the corporate jerk-offs for charging us more than we can afford for stuff that no one but us buys.

and as for originality, let the lazy masses get off their asses and have an IMAGINATION for once. have we seen furry space pirate steampunk anime? no, we haven't.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 25, 2009, 01:21:02 pm
In during DON!.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on October 25, 2009, 02:07:43 pm
Sora, Choco, I must respectfully point out that you are both wrong.

As pretty much pointed out earlier in this thread, people who solely pirate aren't people who would buy the anime to begin with.  So how would that equate to lost revenue?  Pirates aren't a harm to an industry they had no interest in supporting to begin with.

Choco, really?  Pirates help the industry?  I know you've really jumped on this bandwagon, but I think you're making a statement of fanatical devotion.  For the same reasons I mentioned above, how is pirating helping?  Where's the money in it, other than revenue generated on ad-based pirating websites?

I think the truth to the recent slump of anime in the US is that it was caused by two factors: 1) recession 2) shitty quality.  The first one, well, is pretty much obvious, the second one (as also stated by Myrdin) is going to be a little hard for some to swallow.  Recent anime (not just the stuff on TV, but shows recommended by friends) is pretty much meh.  Perhaps, shitty is a bit strong to use, since mediocre is more accurate, but still nothing really worth the watching.  The genre is in a dire need of revitalization because right now there's so much mecha, magical girl, school girl, moe, etc. just inundating the market right now.  Everything is just so redundant now... need some new shit.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 25, 2009, 02:22:40 pm
The QUALITY issue is all too true.
However, that's also an issue that's originating from the design of japanese anime business -> american anime SLAVE business, simply that the mother corporations/license owners often decide pretty much everything - that, or the licensees themselves do a crap job on marketing, translation, FUCKAWFUL DUBBING, etc. And now, when we have an anime industry which goes absolutely nowhere on the international scene, the fansubbers - who in much and many things are very passionate/interested/lulz-devoted to the subbing - do FANCY work, and since they're not forced to adapt to the "market" to "survive" since those terms hardly exist in fansubbing at all aside from keeping the team together, they're pretty much free to do whatever they want. It also helps that the fansubbers in general are PART of the "market" they wish to appeal to - ergo, they make things they, and thus others with like likings, appreciate - and thus their product is highly probable to be successful on the "market", so to say. They have the insider information.

Secondly, on the issue of pirates helping the industry:
It might sound weird, but that is how it is. It's a strange cross-effect, but the fansubbing - in its nature - is a very easy way to get into the fandom, becoming a part of the "market". After that, you're likely to invest some money in it; perhaps not buying actual dvd's and so on (I mean, I don't have any blu-ray drive anywhere close, but I've watched plenty of bluray-ripped->subbed episodes in my time), but very much in buying or consuming things connected to the market. I don't know exactly how the cash flows, true, but I'm quite sure that if some clothesmaker is making a fuckwad of Haruhi t-shirts/posters/whatever to sell on some western con, they'd rather not be buttfucked by KyoAni/Kadokawa/whoever owns that license when they get noticed. A Pirate as I am, I know the ways of copyright and its connected money to some degree, at least.
So perhaps not directly, Ian, but most animu pirates DO help the industry in some way. Indirectly, perhaps, but yet.

It's not exactly the same thing as music piracy, which is my main branch of expertise simply because that's what's on-topic on the intellectual property debate these days, but it's similar, to some degree.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 25, 2009, 03:19:24 pm
i didn't say piracy helped the INDUSTRY; i just said it helped. it helps the fans, the common otakus who don't have exueberant amounts of bling to spend on over-priced crap.

whil i respect the need to make money, where does it end? the coporations are sacrificing quality and people all in the name of PROFIT. it's disgusting.

i mentioned another point as well, downloading anime is a might bit better due to the VARIETY tht is offered. lots of lovely, original anime is being produced right now--in japan. lovely, original anime that reaches the shelves--in japan. not here. hell, some anime never makes it off the net, or out of the manga. but thanks to the miracle of the internet, we can see these odd, and unique anime without going overboard.

rosetta stone: $500.
plane ticket to japan: $1000.
saving time and money by getting anime direct to your home: priceless.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 25, 2009, 03:22:38 pm
Bandwidth: CHEAP AS HELL >:3
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 25, 2009, 03:26:39 pm
bandwith: NO CAN HAS. :[

i feels stupid. :[
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Sora on October 25, 2009, 05:29:45 pm

Australia makes about two films a year, and we lose millions to piracy. Japan makes about two films a minute, so imagine how much they lose.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 25, 2009, 06:26:40 pm
Here we go again with the politics.
Seriously, that's what it all is. Read up before you even start talking about "lost profits", because the only thing that is, is brainwash and propagandery from the butthurt companies who can't FOLLOW THE TIMES.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on October 25, 2009, 07:45:42 pm
I don't think piracy is keeping anime alive, not hardly.  I don't think pirates are the men in black hats certain people make them out to be, but they're no effin messiah either.  I just happen to think their impact on animu in general is negligible.

Let's keep in mind when speak of the anime "industry", it's not the same guys in suits as the MPAA or RIAA.  Sure the MPAA enforces their rules, but they aren't HUEG studios (with the exception of Disney who owns the Miyazaki shit).  I happen to think every little contribution can help when it comes to these smaller studios.

Ugh, the "dub card", I'm not simply referring to licensed anime, I've been keeping track of the stuff overseas as well - it's not so good either.  The problem is there's just so many copy cats and not enough interesting and unique stories, everything seems so done before.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 25, 2009, 08:00:49 pm
True enough, but aiding the overseas companies isn't exactly within sane range of possibility for your average /a/-tard, now is it.

As for any messiah of any kind, well - with the risk of sounding slightly religious, they won't get any messiah until they deserve one. As you say, repetitiousness will be their end, unless they get their asses off the mat and do something worthwhile.
And while piracy itself may not keep anime alive, it keeps alive the interest in anime - which is at least one of the necessary factors for its survival as a business.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Aurora Borealis on October 25, 2009, 08:35:21 pm
I don't have any anime DVDs and if I want to watch an anime series, I usually just whatever I can find on local channels or it's not there, I just watch it on YouTube (if I can find all the episodes! More times than not I have to sift through a lot of AMV crap and just give up) because local stores don't sell anime DVDs and I can't buy anything online.

This decade, moe, school comedy and magical girl series are all the rage. Before that, it was the shonen genre and before THAT, it was the mecha genre.

Different anime genres fall in and out of favor over the years. There is sort of a 'follow the leader' effect going on, but that doesn't mean a series in one of the popular genres can't be original, though finding a new series that is very different is highly refreshing!
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Vash342 on October 25, 2009, 08:54:56 pm
I recently ventured into my local FYE, Comic Book Store, and Walmart.

Located on the east coast, in case this matters to any.  FYE's selection included movies, specialties, and a lot of shoujo series.  Most Single DVD's of anime were around 20-30 dollars ranging from 2-5 episodes.  Many of the DVD's all sounded dull and repetative, except for a few of them.  All of the series that were there, other than specialty were mainstream you could find anywhere.

Wal-Mart had boxsets of dragonball Z and they stopped carrying The Tick box sets T_T.  Very sad.

Comic Book Store sold a very limited selection of very good looking series or series I loved watching.  Price was around 10-15 a DVD, most ranging in 3-4 episodes.  Most series were older though.


Shows me that I honestly just need to look, because people still must be buying it from somewhere whether it be deepdiscount dvd or their local specialty shop/comic book store.

So from my research anime is not dead, it's just in a recession, much like the country as a whole is.  I know tons of people who won't watch it either unless it's on their directTv or cable service, because they otherwise can't afford it.

pirates only come into play though when people want something but can't afford it but have the know how or have friends who have the know how,  and just give them the series.  AKA people who don't follow the rules of licensed anime, or recently licensed free fansubs.  Times are going all digital, and I don't see piracy stopping, and I definitely don't see anime going out either.  After all, Japan is still pushing out anime all the time, so there will never be a shortage anywhere, especially if it's a good series.  on the other hand if it's like Fire Emblem the anime, then don't expect it to survive anywhere.


Really that's where I honestly see this entire thread going.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on October 25, 2009, 11:51:32 pm
Well, I only have five complete series on DVD along with a few other random anime DVDs (mostly movies), so obviously my collection isn't very exhaustive.  Only one of my sets was particularly expensive (FLCL), but that's only because I managed to find the rest on sale.  Still, most of the stuff I've bought is old, as there's only been a few modern series I've actually taken a shine to.

Personally, I'd prefer it if there were more older animu on TV, some classics could really reinvigorate interest in the genre as a whole and might possibly inspire studios to actually come up with something interesting.  Now, as a comic book fan, I have to admit I'm very intrigued in the licensing deal Madhouse has worked out to produce some Marvel animu.  Can't say I dig the Twilight Wolverine, but the trailer I saw for Iron Man looked pretty badass.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Sora on October 26, 2009, 02:14:14 am
Quote from: "Vash342"pirates only come into play though when people want something but can't afford it but have the know how or have friends who have the know how,  and just give them the series.

Or just can't be bothered to pay for it...
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 26, 2009, 04:04:05 am
You're unredeemable, aren't you. -.-
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Seamore on October 26, 2009, 11:14:13 am
Well....I don't know about some country, but at least in my country, buying the real Anime DVD is extremely costly. Not because of the price, but because of damn government people.
I once bought lots of DVD costing over 100 US dollars and what do I get? Those damn government people said I need to pay Import Tariff. And so I ask, How much? And they said 3x time the value

3x time the value!!!!!!!!!!!

Of course I don't bring that much that time, so I tell them that I will be back tomorrow.
And the next day when I arrived there, they said they already destroyed the illegal goods.
...................................
I HATE CORRUPT GOVERNMENT. I WISH I HAVE A NUKE AND BLOW THAT DAMN PLACE
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 26, 2009, 11:58:55 am
Viva bandwidth. Banzai! _M_
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Sora on October 26, 2009, 06:07:20 pm
Here in Australia the tax is fixed at 10% for pretty much everything except "essential goods" like food, which don't get taxed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goods_and_Services_Tax_%28Australia%29
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Vash342 on October 26, 2009, 06:24:19 pm
Tax in the Commonwealth is 6% on everything except food, unless it's prepared, and the only tax exemptions are churches, nonprofit organizations, and lemonade stands.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 26, 2009, 08:26:30 pm
Tax in Socialist Scandinavia is ridiculously high. I believe it's something like 20% on computer parts, or something...
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Red-Machine on October 27, 2009, 05:55:27 am
We have a universal Value Added Tax that is at 15% at the moment.  Previously it was 17.5%, which I believe it will return to next year.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 29, 2009, 12:10:41 am
we don't hav a sales tax in my state. :3 one out of 6 states in this country that don't. ^^

however, i'm still pretty shit-poor. all of my anime is used, or was gifted, or is burned dvd. the only thing  remember buying new for no special occasion was my first anime vid, kiki's delivery service, and that was about 12 dollars, about 6 years ago, bought at a store that has since shut down.

piracy seems like a saving grace to me. yes, it's wrong. but in a way it's vigilante justice, a sort of futuristic robin hood. most of my anime/manga stuff was gifted, collected over time, or stolen. (i don't steal stuff myself, except a vincent valentine and a zac plushie i stole/recieve from a friend.)
i can't afford much anime, and i don't get any decent anime on my tv. (basic cable.) my grandparents get some good titles on demand, so when i say i'm watching xXxholic or solty rei i'm watching it there.

almost all the music in my library is pirated. i'd like to start on anime, because i figure, just cause i'm not rich, does that mean i shouldn't get to watch?

maybe you don't support it, but i do.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 29, 2009, 01:07:57 pm
Just for a perspective, I get absolutely no animu at all on television and there's 4 stores in all sweden that sell any of it. Manga is available in most bookstores, but still in -very- limited amounts, aside from 6-7 niche shops.

Throughout the entire nation.

That's where the 3rd highest bandwidth in the world comes to play >:3
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Red-Machine on October 29, 2009, 03:55:13 pm
I have nothing against it, personally Choco.  Most of the anime I have now I originally torrented.  But I'm lucky that we have a chain of stores over here that ALWAYS has an anime section and they go for cheap most of the time.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 29, 2009, 06:16:13 pm
there's a nice chain around here called newbury comics, and they sell anime for dirt-cheap.

only trouble is, while i got a limited edition box set for 3 bucks, it was supposed to come cds, and it didn't.

and it's a tad out of the way, and i usually don't have the cash for stuff (prices seem to range from 3 bucks for basic box sets that are missing stuff >:\ to 25 for hal a season of FMA in a tin. )

and the selection is limited, cause all of it's used. the section covers about an entire shelf (picture, for a moment, your basic free standing store shelf. about a meter across, 1-2 high or so, usually paired with several others. the section covers one side of one of those.) and there's alot of boxed sets which just take up space, so there's not too much offered, when you think about it.

and i reitrate: there are bunches of series that never make it across the pond(s). so torrenting is the only option to get those forbidden fruits.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Red-Machine on October 29, 2009, 06:19:24 pm
Indeed!  Tho there's some stuff that I'm amazed got anywhere near liscenced.

The Story of Little Monica, for instance, is basically a hentai.  Two of the girls the main character sleeps with are 12 & 14.  How the FRACK did they get around that?
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 29, 2009, 06:51:34 pm
because, probably back when it was made, cartoon kiddie p0rn wasn't illegal. it was only b&ed recently.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Ultimaninja on October 29, 2009, 10:16:40 pm
Last anime I watched...Kanokon And that was sometime in the spring.

The anime I like I only can find three-times a Year, and even then there is a 79% chance it will not even be in stock.

I torrent the anime I like, and if I could find it I'll buy it.

And people are right, it is hard to find anime that is not always overdone for plot line. Kanokon was a bit different, but kinda generic for story-wise.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on October 29, 2009, 10:30:59 pm
Kankokon was just fanservice imo, but meh.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Ultimaninja on October 29, 2009, 10:51:32 pm
Yes...yes it was.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Requiem on October 30, 2009, 10:09:13 am
Huff,it's nearly impossible to buy an original anime DVD in my city.
The only way to get an original anime is by buying it from internet...
and it's really expensive for me...
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 31, 2009, 03:39:34 am
exactly. UBER expenses for any sort of anime have driven us to pirate. it's easier, cheaper, and quicer, with alot more variety and alot less hassle.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on October 31, 2009, 03:16:02 pm
UBER expenses?

For folks that have to import, I understand, but here in America, it isn't that bad.  I mean, during a recession there's other stuff one should spend one's money on, but really the price of animu has dropped considerably since I first started watching.  Places like BestBuy and AnimeNation have great prices, and almost always have something on sale.  The prices are generally comparable to any other DVD, really.  It's not there's some big, bad organization conspiring to keep you from having animu.  If you pirate for whatever reason, that's fine, but let's try to stay grounded in reality now, shall we?
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Red-Machine on October 31, 2009, 03:36:36 pm
It's not comparable.  At least not here.

I could buy all the Babylon 5 boxsets for £65.  Now, that's 5 series with 6 discs each.  The Elfen Lied boxset is £50 in the same shop, and that's only four DVDs.  The same with Negima.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on October 31, 2009, 04:47:22 pm
I did say in America, though... I have no idea how it is elsewhere.

I just think there's just a wee bit of exaggeration going on in regards to the expense stateside.  I mean, I could afford it, and I'm not exactly Daddy Warbucks here...
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on October 31, 2009, 09:10:38 pm
i see it from a poor perspective
every new dvd is AT LEAST 30 bucks. there's a best buy, but i never go to it (too out of the way) and i've never even heard of anime nation (what, do you live with the CiCi's and stuckey's or something?), so used anime is cheap, but new crap is FUKKIN EXPENSIVE, especially when you can't even afford to keep your phone. (srsly, we went w/o phone service for about 2 weeks or so earlier this month. you remember, right nejin?)

sides, VAREITY. why am i gonna spend my non-earned cash on something stupid like a pokemans spoof?
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on October 31, 2009, 10:38:28 pm
No, I live out in the sticks...

The nearest Best Buy is in a city a couple of hours away, but I was mostly referring to their online presence.  AnimeNation (http://www.animenation.com/) is a website, dealing specifically in anime merch.  I'm only trying to make the point that it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.  Like I said, I can understand if you're unable to afford it, but it's not like you're a bandido and the "animu conglomerate" is Porfirio Diaz or something.  You just want to see animu and are currently unable to afford it, does there need to be a bad guy?
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on November 01, 2009, 01:04:58 am
no, i suppose not. but in all fairness, sora and others were depicting the pirate as "the bad guy". i was retaliating/defending by shooting it back on the producers, who are one of the roots of the problem s/he was bringing up.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on November 01, 2009, 01:06:33 am
But the point is, it's still wrong.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "the producers", but if we're being literal here, those are the folks that front the expense for a project and are involved in the promotion.  Without them - no animu :(.

This isn't like the record industry, it's a lot more involved.

There a number of people who put meaningful work into these shows, and a number of people involved in making the show available here.  The expense involved in doing this kind of stuff is outrageous so for the asking price, it's not like they're robbing you blind or anything.  I'm not trying to make the case for you to buy this stuff, but only that you refrain from making it sound like some corrupt "industry" trying to swindle you out of every last dime.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on November 01, 2009, 03:12:28 am
IDK is right, in some parts that I can decipher at least.
The costs involved in the animation industry are enormous compared to what the record industry juggle - and they have a lot less to juggle with, too. If, say, SONY Music drop a few balls out of the air, it's not a big deal for them economically (although they'd still whine and sue for it) - but if Kyoto Animation drop the same amount of assets, they're in for hard times. The animation companies are many and large, and operate largely confined to the 100-odd million japanese viewers - of which maybe 50-70% are remotely or more interested in what they offer. Granted, they receive a large wad of cash from the sponsors and TV stations, but that's barely enough to make it out alive - to profit off it, they need the viewers to purchase.

Just a fact-pointer: it can easily be deducted the animation companies have a lot less to juggle with from one easy look at the amount of legal crackdowns we see on fansubbing etc - which is, quite simply, miniscule, from what I see. The reason for which being that they simply don't have the record industry's fat wad of cash to wave at the lawyers, judges and everyone else in the chain of justice - and even less to bribe them with.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on November 01, 2009, 12:36:20 pm
Exactly, but is my English that poor?
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on November 01, 2009, 11:21:27 pm
Ehehe ^^ No, I was more talking of what I can decipher from analyzing your arguments and putting together my own facts, which are rather lacking in volume on this subject. -w-;
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: IanDanKilmaster on November 02, 2009, 03:29:15 am
Well, you deciphered well, as you hit the nail right on the head.

I think you struck a good balance between explaining it out while also avoiding being overly in-depth.
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: NejinOniwa on November 02, 2009, 09:30:57 am
Hey, a writer's gotta be able to write things, ne? No matter what they may be about, fiction or facts. -w-
Title: Anime dead in U.S.?
Post by: Chocofreak13 on November 04, 2009, 07:45:13 pm
peace is achieved. ~^^~