Hot Button Topics (religion, politics, sports)

Started by Simonorged, January 23, 2013, 11:38:01 am

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Bella

Quote from: LeaflameSD on March 09, 2013, 04:48:23 am
God.

Discuss.


Agnostic here. I believe there may be a god / "higher power" / creator (though not in the Judeo-Christian sense of the word), but I also believe there may not be. Above all I think it is absolutely impossible for human beings to KNOW whether or not it exists, so there really isn't much of a point in thinking about it (at least for me personally). Practically-speaking, I'm borderline atheist (in that I rarely contemplate a god or act as though one exists), though "apatheist" might be a better term for my behavior. I do enjoy going to religious services on occasion (generally I feel most comfortable at liberal and open churches, though I can't deny that Catholic Mass can be quite beautiful as well), but it's not so much a matter of spirituality as it is enjoying seeing the togetherness of people and appreciating the music and stories and all of that. 

This is a bit tangential to the topic of god - since you can be religious without professing to believe in a god / gods - but I should still mention it, since many people assume agnostics are "atheists lite", so to speak, and that all atheists are anti-religion (neither of which are necessarily true). I don't mind religion if it's approached sensibly. If people can find a way to have a religion while being respectful of people with different faiths, or no faiths at all, and use their religion as a means of self-betterment and inspiration, I think it has the potential to be positive. The same goes for atheists and agnostics. I dislike pushy and rude atheists as much as I dislike pushy/rude religious folk, though I probably agree with more of their arguments, I still think it's in bad taste to shove your belief systems down the gullets of other people unprovoked. Just as every living person has a right to bodily autonomy, EVERYONE has a right to their own beliefs as long as they don't trespass on the beliefs / bodily autonomy of other people.

NejinOniwa

You call it a god, I call it an imaginary sky fairy. You call it a lie, I call it a convenient abstraction of truth as we can observe it.

Besides, the core of it hasn't really changed all that much since the Standard Model was introduced. Yes, its scope has been expanded, and we've learned a good amount of new things since. There's a lot of things going on out in the fringe of scientific knowledge, mainly because we can't prove any of it - its heart remains mostly the same however, until something really groundbreaking comes along. Nothing of that magnitude has really been discovered in the last half-century or so, and so we've just polished what we know and what we've learned to more accurate models.

The difference is that a scientist knows that his "beliefs" are incorrect, inaccurate and at best only a reasonable model of reality. Our human minds are ultimately incapable of understanding reality as a whole - thus, we must divide it into parts of common likenesses and laws of common rulebooks. We "change our lies" because we know they're incorrect, and we fully expect them to change. A scientist accepts the fact that he can never be sure about anything, and strives to understand as much as he can without the limitation of being forced to adhere to a set of rules that cannot be broken because "they're the rules".

The laws of nature ARE laws because we do not observe them being broken - as long as proof holds, the law remains. For example there was the huge hubbub around the Neutrino experiment a while back that seemed to indicate the neutrinos had exceeded the speed of light - and for a while the scientific community was ready to accept the possibility that one of our most fundamental truths could be wrong. It turned out to be a false alarm, however, and the law remains.


Meanwhile, religion consists (from what I can see) of generations of humans trying to understand the world in a far less accurate way than we can now, documenting their ideas and then having those ideas twisted around and used by their latter generations as propaganda, tools of power and various excuses all around, threatening anyone who dares challenge these old "ideas" with death, excommunication, blah blah blah - just because changing those ideas and laws would change and threaten their power.

Science isn't just a set of laws and ideas, it's a mindset. If science worked like religion there'd be people all around refusing to acknowledge various scientific proof and new laws of nature just because it threatened their business model.

Religion refuses to accept that the world is changing, and insists that ideas written down by some random guy thousands of years ago are absolute truth without a single shred of proof. Science is accepting that the world always changes, and that our vision of truth must always change with it.

Accepting religion means believing you understand the world, and then struggling to explain away the parts you don't. Accepting science means accepting that you do not understand the world, and striving to learn as much of its parts as you can.

Religion preserves. Science changes.
But the state of nature is chaos, and in the end, chaos always wins.

You're simply delaying the inevitable with your pointless struggle. Why prolong your suffering?
YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

Penti-chan

I'm agnostic at the moment.

This is mostly due to the fact that Christianity has been rather soured for me due to people like my mom; who are bigots that use their religion as justification for their hatefulness. Granted, that's not a problem with the religion, but more a problem with the person in question, but given how I live in a small Texas town where it seems that bigots like that are the majority, it's a bit hard for me to follow it without being surrounded by people I can't stand.

As for whither God exists or not, all I'll say is that it all boils down to what you believe in; everybody has a different way to view the world.

Simonorged

March 09, 2013, 12:45:54 pm #318 Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 12:54:21 pm by Simonorged
Much better.
@pent: they're misusing christianity, much like the crusaders. Sorry to hear that.

@Nej: In regards to your last line, I could say the same thing.

Even if you don't believe in god, you have to admit it all started somewhere. Science says that matter is never created or destroid, and we believe that our god always existed. Hence our expanation of how all began.
Simon was here :P<br />

Bella

@Pent: I do agree with Simon here, anyone who uses their religion to justify hatred is very misguided. I suspect even if they WEREN'T Christian they would be filled with hate and find SOME reason to justify it - after all, there's absolutely no shortage of racists, sexists, homophobes and otherwise hateful / judgmental people even among the atheist, agnostic and skeptic communities, and these are the people who claim to be the most enlightened. They aren't basing their hatred on the (supposed) teachings of a holy book - it's something embedded within their character. I suspect hateful people of faith are afflicted by the same personality defect. 

@Genpop: Not gonna lie, my favorite "spiritual" concepts (if you can call them that) are probably pantheism (to put it very simply, the belief that the universe / nature = god, though not in the omnipotent, omniscient creator-being sense of the term), as well as the "lattice universe" hypothesis - the (at-this-point-still-thoroughtly-untested) concept that the universe is a computer simulation of some sort. I can't say I subscribe to either belief, though I find them both comforting thoughts.

Also, I really dislike the idea that religious people can't be rational or scientifically-minded, and that atheists, agnostics and skeptics are naturally more rational / scientifically-minded due to their disbelief. Unless a person wants to drag the creation myths or morals dictated by their religion into their work (for instance, "creation scientists"), I see capability for rational thought and belief / disbelief in god/gods/religion as two entirely different things. Science is the study of the material universe; religion is speculation about the soul (if you choose to believe in one) and what lies BEYOND the material universe. I don't know why it's so damned hard for people to separate these concepts and not drag religion into science, and vice-versa. -__-;

LeaflameSD

The bible is built on theories, so is Christianity. You can't see the lord, because that's part of the test. Faith. If you believe God exists (I don't), then (apparently) you will live a long life or go to heaven.


Chocofreak13

a god and a goddess came together to create all. such is the way of life, a dual nature. night and day, woman and man, ying and yang. together she formed the earth with her fertility and he helped it grow with his seed. they watch over, love and protect their creation and those who inhabit it.
i believe in the god and the goddess, though i primarily worship the goddess. the incarnations of the god and the goddess i worship represent the moon and the ocean, a constant balance, change, and flow, reflecting the path of life. just as time passes, so must the tide roll in, and the tide roll out, and there will be good times and bad times. but constantly the goddess watches over us, smiling down as protector with her pale face. and the god shelters us and tends to us, giving us his strength and his force of will to carry on, even as the tide of fortune rolls out.

of course i believe in science too. but that fluffy spiritual crap i just wrote DOES mean a lot to me. i've worshipped Luna since i was a small child, and i always (ALWAYS) feel safer with her near.
i'm not a good practicing pagan, but i believe in acceptance and the old ways. just as we have been persecuted for who and what we are, so shall we not persecute others for being who and what they are.

NejinOniwa

That's the thing. RELIGION is the systematic organization of spiritual beliefs into an arbitrary system that ends up doing nothing but ruining shit.

I don't have too much against spiritual beliefs themselves, per se. It's just the frantic struggle of humans trying to establish order and preserve that state in the most chaotic world of all - the collective imaginations of the human race - and the subsequent attempts to make that into a damn business model that so vehemently disgusts me.

On a related note, the pope resigned fairly recently.
First time that's happened in a number of centuries. I guess it's hard to blame him - his employer isn't exactly the most outgoing in the world...
YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

LeaflameSD

March 10, 2013, 10:54:59 am #323 Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 10:58:00 am by LeaflameSD
What is religion?


NejinOniwa

YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

LeaflameSD

March 10, 2013, 12:33:05 pm #325 Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 03:55:13 pm by LeaflameSD
Don't give a fuck... EDIT: I'm kidding, I know it's annoying, I just wanted an excuse to use the marquee sorry :(

Penti-chan



alfonso_rd_30

March 10, 2013, 06:28:59 pm #328 Last Edit: March 10, 2013, 07:02:15 pm by alfonso_rd_30
Quote from: stewartsage on March 09, 2013, 12:03:45 am
If by stolen you mean 'gave up to stop getting beaten up in an actually fairly negotiated treaty'.


yup stolen, at gunpoint, but we're more civilized than the gringos, so we decided to recolonize it...

About Religion:

@ Bella: I mentioned before, I am a welcoming guy to every person, yet to the poor Mormon I can't not see without feeling sadness... since I felt their guideline to be the wrong one...

@ Nej: well said Sir... I've been following a certain Foundation on faceboob, which only purpose is to turn the world into atheist morons, bashing the System of religion... I know and agree with the end of the atheists (A better world and humanity) but disagree with their methods... removing faith will weaken humanity... Haven't we learned anything from Superman...? In Krypton were all Atheist Super scientists, and they got their planet blown up... and regarding your book, I do believe you to be wrong in saying religion is a set of rules and Ideas... but A guideline to live your life... Personally I KNOW God Created The CREATION (This Universe and the thousands of "Fictitious") Universes We are privileged to Observe throught several means, Knowing well the christian Holy trinity to be True (My bet is that the Holy Spirit is a "She", like kari mentioned...)

@ Penti: As Bella Mentioned, There are several nut jobs in every Religion in the world...

@ Simon: Amen to that, Brother...

@Bella 2: Tis' True, thou speak with thy wisdom of a SAGE...

@Leaf: indeed it is, yet we all follow the paths God intended for each and every one of us....

@Kari: you're the best pagan you can be, as long as you don't deviate from your teachings to an unnatural path for them, I'm sure the Goddess will welcome you in the afterlife...

@Leaf2: It is reaaaaaaly annoying.....

@ Penti2: indeed it is

@Nej2: try heading the biggest religion of the world while finding some of the guides are nut jobs and having your best man let the people know things reserved only for your eyes... Add to that having almost 90 years old with some diseases impedingyou to perform the best you can... the resignation was expected...

and Don't mess with the Employer, OK?

Penti-chan

Quote from: alfonso_rd_30 on March 10, 2013, 06:28:59 pm
@ Penti: As Bella Mentioned, There are several nut jobs in every Religion in the world...


Agreed. The same even applies to groups outside of religion; like with popular TV series or other such things