Hot Button Topics (religion, politics, sports)

Started by Simonorged, January 23, 2013, 11:38:01 am

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Chocofreak13

*burns zimmerman in effigy* all in favour?

NejinOniwa

Nope. I admit I'm not the most read-up on the case, but in all fairness I believe Zimmerman acted quite justly in the case.
YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

Bella

July 18, 2013, 03:16:39 pm #692 Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 03:54:33 pm by Bella
Quote from: Simonorged on July 18, 2013, 08:37:03 am
Your saying that a guy, who was in fact defending himself.
Forensic and autopsy proved this.
Should be treated as less than human because he was getting his head beat into the pavement before shooting?


So your saying a teenage boy who was being followed by a stranger in a car doesn't have the right to defend himself against said stranger? If I had the size and strength of Trayvon Martin I would surely use my hands and fists to defend myself against an unknown assailant. (Fuck, even as a 5'6'', 125lb female-bodied person I'd attempt to fight back.) As would most normal human beings.

As well, a medical examiner who examined Zimmerman determined that his injuries were, in no way, life threatening.

QuoteMartin wasn't a saint either.


Oh wow a teenage boy smoking pot and getting suspended from school! What a little hooligan he was! Never mind that *most* teenagers experiment with drugs at some point and *many* teens get suspended from school. When white kids do those things it's written off as normal teenage experimentation / stupidity, when black kids do those things they're thugs-in-the-making. (There's also the matter of the much higher rates of suspension for black kids - often times, behavior that's tolerated in whites is considered suspicious or troublesome enough in black children to warrant suspension. Hrm.)

QuoteHe was a coke dealer who was walking through a neiborhood at 2 in the morning.


Funny, I searched "Trayvon Martin" and "drug dealer" in Google and I turned up nothing but right wing "alternative" news sites, Yahoo! Answers posts and white supremacy blogs. After five minutes sifting through links in Google search I searched Google News, and once again turned up nothing of substance. Hrrrrrrmmmmmmm.

Perhaps you're an undercover investigative journalist and are privy to some info we plebeians know not of?

QuoteWhen confronted he attacked Zimmerman, pinning him to the ground.


Once again, any human being with a half an ounce of fight-or-flight instinct would pin an unknown attacker to the ground in that situation. (Me, I'd probably just have to settle for a crotch-kick or maybe an eye-gouge.) Are you implying that, since Martin was strong enough to actually fight back against Zimmerman - who ATTACKED Martin - he deserved to die?

QuoteBut the media wont tell you this, they want to make you think that Zimer is a racist fuck.


Yes, because The Mainstream Media is a massive conglomerate of left-wing oligarchs who conspire to hide The Truth from us, man!

This is fact. Fox News told me so.

QuoteThe gun was licensed and had all the paperwork.


Immaterial. I don't care that Zimmerman had a gun, that's his right as a US citizen (I'm not being sarcastic here - if you recall past HBT discussions, I'm quite possibly the most pro-gun rights person on OSC). I have a problem with a "neighborhood watch"-man chasing down an unknown person who did nothing wrong and assailing him, like a lunatic.

QuoteIt was a clean shoot.


"At least Zimmerman put down Martin in a humane fashion" is what you're saying, then?

Yes, we should surely be glad that he gave that teenage human being the same amount of respect as a vet euthanizing somebody's pet.

QuoteAnd this is why you look for all the facts.


Since you're fond of facts, I'm gonna lay down a few for you:

   
•   George Zimmerman molested a 6-year-old girl--and continued to molest her throughout the next 10 years of her life.
   
•   In 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with "resisting an officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer."
   
•   That same year, Zimmerman's ex-fiance filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence.
   
•   In the year before killing Trayvon Martin, Zimmerman had called the police 46 times. 7 of these calls specifically reported Black men. In four of the recordings, Zimmerman reported "suspicious" persons -- all of whom were Black. Several times Zimmerman suggested Black men were responsible for local burglaries.
   
•   Zimmerman, a 29-year-old adult male, followed 17-year-old Martin for no fewer than 4 solid minutes, first in his car and then on foot.
   
•   In these actions, Zimmerman "didn't follow protocol as a neighborhood watch volunteer."

•   Zimmerman revealed his state of mind to the dispatcher as he followed Martin: "Fucking punks, these assholes all get away." (An unedited 911 recording suggests Zimmerman may have said, "Fucking coons.")

•   The 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman: "Okay, we don't need you to [follow him]."

•   At no time did Zimmerman identify himself to Martin.

•   The medical examiner who examined Zimmerman "disputed his claims that Martin slammed his head repeatedly on the pavement," going so far as to say Zimmerman's injuries "were not life threatening... very insignificant."

•   George Zimmerman has no regrets and has said that the murder of Trayvon Martin was "all God's plan."

Zimmerman had a history of criminal, erratic, racist behavior. He defied orders from police by following Martin and provoked Martin to fight. I don't know EVERYTHING that happened that night (and neither does anyone besides Zimmerman and Martin, RIP), but it's clear he was at fault in killing Martin and should have - at least - gotten charged with manslaughter. People have been charged with manslaughter for cooking unsanitary food. People have been charged with manslaughter for miscarrying fetuses. People have been charged with manslaughter for causing auto accidents. You're telling me Zimmerman wasn't at fault for his irresponsible (if not criminal) actions?

Quote from: NejinOniwa on July 18, 2013, 11:08:07 am
Nope. I admit I'm not the most read-up on the case, but in all fairness I believe Zimmerman acted quite justly in the case.


What part of it? Chasing a random stranger down the street after he was told by the police specifically NOT to, or shooting said stranger after he [Zimmerman] provoked him [Martin] into a fight?

Penti-chan

Very nicely put. Also, I just have to highlight this:

Quote from: Bella on July 18, 2013, 03:16:39 pm
Yes, because The Mainstream Media is a massive conglomerate of left-wing oligarchs who conspire to hide The Truth from us, man!

This is fact. Fox News told me so.


That has to be the greatest sentence I've ever seen
*gives you cupcake*

Bella

July 18, 2013, 04:46:47 pm #694 Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 04:50:15 pm by Bella
Heh, thanks Pent.

Also, I'd like to note that while I can see where the arguments against the racialization of the George Zimmerman case come from (it would obviously be a horrific tragedy / crime regardless of the race of the victim or perpetrator and even if there was no racial motivation), it's naive to assume that this case can be views through a "raceless" or "post-racial" lens.

Take for example the case of Marissa Alexander. She's a 32-year-old black Floridian and mother of three who fired a warning shot into the ceiling when she was assailed by her abusive husband, whom she had a protective order against. She was arrested for attempted murder and, in spite of pleading that she had fired the shot in self-defense and was justified under Florida's Stand Your Ground Law, received a sentence of 20 years in prison.

A white (-ish) guy with a criminal record chasing and gunning down a black teenager? That's A-OK, according to a Florida court. A black woman who had no prior offenses protecting herself and her children against an abusive spouse? Attempted murderer. 20 years in prison.

There's also the case of Michael Dunn and Jordan Davis. Michael Dunn is a white Florida man who fatally shot Davis, a 17-year-old black teenager, in a gas station parking lot after harassing Davis and his friends about playing loud music in their vehicle and getting into a heated argument with the boys. Dunn claims he felt threatened by the teens and says he mistook "a barrel or a stick" of some kind for a shotgun and fired at the boys in a lawful use of the Stand Your Ground Law. He's going to trial later this summer.

Here's a short summary of a few other racially-charged self-defense cases.

Chocofreak13

i just set up the zimmerman straw doll, and i've got the lighter fluid. anyone got the torches?

(@bella: agreeing with pent here, that was beautifully put. *hands fresh-baked cookie*)

NejinOniwa

I may be quite off the van here, since I am - painfully - oblivious to the racial connotations of US society. Kari can attest to as much, I believe. In the Zimmerman case, it all boils down to A: who attacked who, and B: how truthful is Zimmerman's story, and that of the witnesses. There are no objective accounts, and we cannot find an objective truth. Simply looking at the facts I'm presented with, I don't see anything wrong with the outcome of the trial. Sure, Zimmerman could've acted differently and avoided a confrontation. Sure, Florida courts might be a huge load of racist fucktards, I have no idea. But from my standpoint, and from the facts - and accounts - I've been given, Zimmerman's actions were not wrong.

There's IF's everywhere in the whole story. IF Zimmerman DID confront the guy willingly, then OF COURSE he'd try his damndest to use his knowledge of the justice system to escape a conviction. IF he didn't, of course he'd defend himself. I'm quite willing to believe that, in a situation like that, he'd be panicked enough to believe his life was in danger, even if his wounds were not severe at all. After all, the purpose of deadly violence in the first place is to PREVENT extreme bodily harm to oneself. Seeing as, one way or another, he was successful in this, then O F bloody C he won't have deadly wounds on his own body. He acted in time.

And OF COURSE the Martins are going to do their damndest to damn their son's murderer to as much hate as they can. And OF COURSE they won't believe he's telling the truth, and OF COURSE they will feel like they're getting oppressed by the system.

When the system doesn't have facts to go on, the system does as well as it can with the stories it's told. Whether those stories are lies or not does not matter in the system's outcome, for the system has no inherent way of knowing. And if only one part of a conflict is alive, well. Call me cold, but Vae Victis. It is better to praise the living and condemn the dead, if for no other reason that the dead won't come back to haunt you - and you won't ruin the life left to live for the living.
YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

Simonorged

July 18, 2013, 07:42:08 pm #697 Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 07:49:03 pm by Simonorged
I agree with Nejin
@Bella, no I don't mean humane, I mean it was a clean shoot.
It wasn't a dirty shot.
Simon was here :P<br />

Chocofreak13

@nej: but we DO have some facts to go on. there was the fact that ZIMMERMAN was following MARTIN. not the other way around. martin wasn't doing anything but passing through, and yet zimmerman felt "threatened" enough to follow him for "the good of the neighborhood" (idk if those are actual quotes, but you get the picture). the 911 call attests to that, when the operator told him HE DOESN'T NEED TO FOLLOW THE GUY. if i was being followed by a random stranger for a good 5 minutes, i might react the same way. does that give the guy the right to shoot me? hell no, HE was the one committing the crime in this situation (stalking, harassment, menacing, possibly even disorderly conduct). HE'S the creep here.

Bella

Kari summed up what I was going to say, almost point-for-point actually. There's a lot of talk about how Zimmerman acted in self defense, but people seem to be forgetting that Zimmerman WAS the aggressor in the situation - against police orders (and rational human judgement) he followed and confronted Martin, while Martin acted in self defense.


Chocofreak13

it was CLEARLY racially motivated, to boot. someone (bells) correct me if i'm wrong here, but wasn't martin wandering through zimmerman's neighborhood, which is predominantly white? combined with his irrational following of martin and his past crimes against blacks, i'd say that martin's race was the trigger here. would zimmerman have reacted the same way if martin were white? hispanic? asian?

NejinOniwa

I have SUBSTANTIAL doubt on the racial factor as a motive. Regardless of guilt, that whole thing just reeks of media stains.
YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

Chocofreak13

evidently you've never been to florida. closet racism runs high there.

Bella

@Kari: The neighborhood is about 20% black. Combined with Zimmerman's past behavior it seems safe to say that his following Martin was - at least in part - motivated by racial bias.

@Nej: I think you underestimate racial tension / biases in the United States*. We've obviously come a long way since the blatant, often times violent and government-sanctioned racism of the past, but there's still an alarming amount of racism in our culture today (especially in light of the fact that many people claim that we are "past racism" or in a "post-racial" society). Black people in particular are still framed as more likely to be criminal and dangerous compared to other minorities and whites, and there are a shit-ton of social and governmental factors that contribute to a higher rate of poverty, unemployment, lower wages, incarceration - and fewer social and economic opportunities overall - among black Americans. It's an extremely complex issue which can't be properly summed up in a paragraph or two, but suffice to say it's naive to assume that race isn't a factor in a crime of this nature.

*The US is a big and complicated nation - each state, region, city and community is different, some have higher rates of racial tension, some aren't as bad. As well, racism is a problem across the globe, but I really don't know enough about racism overseas to speak about it.

Chocofreak13

"When someone inserts a fictional black person into their story, they're usually the bad guy."
-Detective Odefin Tutuola, Law and Order: Special Victims Unit