OS-tans, Species, and Evolution

Started by Aurora Borealis, May 23, 2010, 01:57:01 pm

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Aurora Borealis

Let's continue the discussion here! :)

Bella

Quote from: "Aurora"BTW, I edited my post and went more in-depth about it, but I agree, Bella.

Still wanting to know about the Mac 'mafia', I don't think the Mac-tans are in it by choice, and they have to follow orders, or at least the OSX-tans do, since the 'protection' doesn't apply as much --or at all-- to the Classic Mac-tans. Speaking of which, I think the Classic Mac-tans have stayed in the House of Mac out of loyalty for the OSX-tans, and the OSX-tans are grateful but have not experienced any other upbringing aside from the 'protection' they live under so they have to comply with executive orders.


I read your edited post and would have to agree with you on all points. :)

At least when I envision this Mac Mafia scenario, it's not exactly like the typical idea of organized crime-- not even criminal at all, of course. But I imagine the Macs are a group that have a VERY high regard for family, honour and tradition, and have a lot of gratitude and reverence for their leader-- don, so to speak-- Jobs. ^^'

They know they can never seize political power and regain their lost territory (the home computer market) but this doesn't faze them very much because they're comfortable in their own niche market-- or racket, if you will. They're generally good-willed and friendly, too, but they can go a bit overboard when it comes to proving a point to their competition.

Aurora Borealis

Ah, okay! I agree with that! I was afraid that the whole Mac Mafia thing would imply that the Mac-tans had to be criminals, can't be diplomatic nor interact with outsiders! ^^;

Even though they can't seem to regain their home computer territory, or much of it, their marketshare has increased considerably over the past 5 years, having become even more prominent in the design and editing departments. So they're successful for a niche system.

Chocofreak13

i never invisioned the Macs as criminals. I see it from a Katekyo Hitman Reborn standpoint, that they're Mafia, but not EVIL, outright. Just close knit and distrusting of outsiders.

aurora-sama, you beat me to the punch of creating a thread for this! ;P

well, i'll just have to do you one better and copy-pasta everything that has been said over here. xD

Chocofreak13

Quote from: "Bella"
...Also, I had a thought (all this talk of OS/hardware/software relationships gave me the idea)-- d'ye suppose that hardware, software and OS-tans are distinctly different species? I mean, they're all alike in that they're humanoid, but that they're essentially unrelated?

-(Computer) hardware-tans would almost always be mortal and age. Not nearly as quickly as humans, but they wouldn't be ageless like OS-tans either (since hardware is physical and prone to physical damage). Hardware-tans would have the most affinity with OS-tans (since hardware and OS directly communicate) and very rarely work with software-tans.

They were the first of the three groups to be created by humans, and have an existence spanning many decades (although earliest ancestors may have been created hundreds-- even thousands-- of years ago, depending on what you consider "computer hardware" to be).

-OS-tans can be mortal or immortal and are almost always ageless. As a species, they're more conducive to magic (sourcery if you will) because software tends to be more mailable than hardware (existing only as data-- information-- instead of being physical like hardware*). Equally cooperative with hardware and software.

They were created after hardware-tans, to do things (maybe that aforementioned magic?) that hardwares are incapable of.

-Software-tans are related to OS-tans, but still distant enough to be their own species. The same comments regarding mortality, aging and magic-conductivity that apply to OS-tans apply to software-tans. Typically regarded as a lower caste in the computer-tan universe, software-tans are generally dependent upon OS-tans for employment, companionship and ultimately survival (since you can't use a program w/o an OS to run it on). They have very little contact with hardware-tans.

The last species, Firmware-tans, would be something akin to a cross of hardware and program-tan or OS-tan; they'd probably be the lowest class, but one of the largest, since firmware is used in almost EVERYTHING electronic. They usually play a support role for or intermediary between hardware and OS-tan.

I also imagine that only members of a certain species would be able to have children-- meaning that two OS-tans could, in theory, beget a lil' OS-tan, but that a software and OS-tan couldn't. (For instance, there have been rare cases when two OSes have been merged to create a third OS-- but since software, hardware and OS are so different, you could never cross any of the three and make a new product). Then again, there are some instances (typically historical) of hardware and OS being so closely connected that the result is a hybrid of the two-- but these were more likely the result of human creation than natural crossbreeding between species.

I've thoroughly read through all this and will comment in-depth, but I'd like to add something: I decided to split these -tans into different groups exactly so I COULD avoid the problem of the evolution of OS-tans. Aside from evolution in social customs and outward appearances (clothing, etc), I'd rather not think about hardware/software/OS-tans evolving because I've always assumed that they were created by humans and are not some sort of natural phenomena within the OS-tan universe.

As for OS-tan deaths, death is usually caused by a diminished userbase-- OSes with the largest userbases are the healthiest, while those with very small or nonexistent userbases are dead. There are exceptions to this rule, of course-- Multics and SAGE-sama, for instance, should by all means be dead, but are considered alive for story purposes. Xenix-tan, on the other hand, could arguably be considered alive (since Xenix can be, and is, emulated) but she's dead for the sake of story purposes.

Also, when I speak of hardware-tans, I don't mean drones of nameless, random pieces of computer hardware-- I mean one -tan for each distinct computer system. Like there would be a first-gen iMac-tan (or -kun), an IBM PC-kun, a PDP-10-kun-- not a character for every single computer ever made, because that would result in bedlam rather quickly.

@ Aurora: microcomputer-tans would be what I described as "hybrids" of OS/software and hardware-tan. Since the OS/BASIC interpreter and hardware are SO closely connected (at least from a user viewpoint) to be almost inseparable. This will also come up a lot with very old OSes and computer-tans, from the days when there was only a thin line of distinction between the hardware and the software controlling the hardware.

If you want to look at it from an evolution POV, I see them as the transitional species between hardware and OS-tan. The difference from being that evolution implies a transformation from simpler to more complex lifeforms, I don't think hardware-tans are less developed than OS-tans-- they look and act alike and have the same intelligence, it's just that OS-tans can manipulate "energy" or "magic" in ways that hardwares can't.

@ Choco: the evolution of Unix to Linux is more like a... bloodline... if you ask me. It's like talking about the evolution of yourself from your great-grandmother. (BTW, the Unix-tans and Linux-tans are supposed to be related; they're supposed to be roughly from the same "race" or culture, sort of like two people sharing the same country and customs being considered related).

I wouldn't dismiss armies of random hardware-tan masses for storyline purposes, but then again, there's not a lot I would dismiss for storyline purposes. It's not my place to tell people what they can and can't do for a story, just because it doesn't precisely match up with my vision of the OS-tan universe-- short of someone inventing new characters to replace existing ones, or radically re-writing established backgrounds for the characters, that is.

I like the Mac "mafia" idea, as for the Linuxes being like Commies... I actually think that they'd be quite the opposite. Sure, they ARE strongly socialistic, but they're also a very open, transparent culture and attach a lot of stigma to secrecy and shady dealings. If anything, the old school Unices would have have been more Communistic, not really philosophically but politically-- at least in their rapid takeover of vast amounts of "territory" through rather... underhanded... means. >.>

Sorry for that TL;DR: but I've always loved inventing new species and races and stuff. This was fun. ^^

Chocofreak13

Quote from: "Aurora Borealis"
Those ideas all sounds very good, even the part about the Mac-tans being forbidden from interacting with non-Apple hardware-tans.

But many of the vintage home computer-tans blur the line between hardware and software, representing not just the computer but the OS/BASIC it runs. So would they be considered both at the same time? Though I think they'd be more in line with the OS-tans, since these characters would also be cooperative with the software-tans.

Hope that doesn't interfere with that the Mac-tans (especially the Classic ones) are known to visit the vintage-tans from time to time! ^^;

I agree that hardware-tans would have widely varying lifespans, with time not just taking a physical toll but also an emotional toll for those old hardware-tans that were touted as the NEXT BIG THING when they were new.

But I don't see the Mac-tans as supremacists themselves, in fact they're very friendly with most others and have friends from different factions, but it's the security enforced by the executives that is, and forces them to be shut-ins for the most part.

When you're referring to the Classic-tans, are you referring to them being less (or not) 'protected' by the security --and giving them the freedom to be with others, though at the cost of protection from danger-- or the rest of the family, since I see the Mac-tans being a close-knit family despite major generation gaps. (This referencing the considerably large userbase of vintage Mac hobbyists who use both the Classic Mac OS and OSX in the present day)

I can certainly see Tiger-tan and Leopard-tan being the rebellious types though, and interact with 'unapproved' outsiders to challenge the the security guards.

As for OSes that can run on multiple architectures, I see it as an OS-tan being multi-lingual.

I like the forbidden love idea between ME-tan and Mac OS9-kun. While the more laid-back Mac-tans and Windows-tans may approve, there'd be fierce opposition from 95-tan and OSX-tan.

The Windows Family is laid back, with the younger Windows-tans having grown up in peace and prosperity their whole lives. They'd be accepting towards various software-tans --though too accepting at times, to the point of risking their own safety--, but there a lot of secrets are being kept from them.

Their security, enforced by their executives are historical revisionists who have erased records of the family history before the OS Wars, so the Windows-tans know nothing of 1.0-tan, 2.0-tan, PC-DOS-tan, Xenix-tan, and OS/2-tan being a part of the family instead of an enemy. Poor MS DOS-tan, who is still part of the Windows Family, and remembers all of the family's history but is not allowed to speak of it!

I'm still iffy on the idea of the Mac-tan mafia since almost all of them are way too friendly for that (an exception maybe being the gun-toting System 7.5-tan), but do you think may be that way against their will?

The Linux-tans vary a lot. Some of them affiliate with the hard-lined 'elite' Unices, while others are eager to interact with anyone and don't care for stealth tactics, and some of them live as hermits and wanderers. The Unices as a whole are similarly diverse. But there are conflicts between the more elite, and more free Linux-tans.

I think the Vintage-tans would be in a class of their own, but as equals to the OS-tans.

The lifespan for an OS-tan is characterized by the OS's popularity when it was current, how much it continues to be used (if at all), and how well remembered it is.

In the case of Apple I-tan, she represents a fairly well-known computer that had an extremely limited run, but lives on in emulators and Apple I replicas being made currently.

Another case is Xenix-tan, an obscure Unix version from Microsoft. Wasn't widely used or remembered. She died in obscurity.

Even though the Commodore 64 is long-discontinued, C64-tan will live for a long time with all the emulators out there, including a fully licensed one for the iPhone!

However, some life/death cases aren't so clear-cut, or decided for story reasons. Like with Apple III-tan, representing a system that sold very poorly with a high percentage of defective units 30 years ago, and she's still alive!


EDIT: On the OS-tan wiki front page, I created a section for OS-tan theories and conjectures, and will add the evolutions and species theories. :)

I see the each of them as distinct but equally important species, with the vintage computer-tans being in a class of their own. Many of them had not just their own proprietary hardware, but also their own OS/BASIC, file formats, and ROM/firmware in one package.

There was some of that divergence in the 80's, with the DOS-tans and the Mac OS-tans, but it wasn't until the 90's that this became the norm and not the exception.

It was mainly due to MS DOS and the different Windows versions running on various hardware brands. The other major competitor was of course the Mac OS and its distinct hardware. This sacrifice of hardware+OS integration has the advantage of flexibility and adaptability, mainly for OSes that run on x86 architecture.

Sure, the Mac OS has always been confined to Apple hardware, but not just one particular model.

BTW, I edited my post and went more in-depth about it, but I agree, Bella.

Still wanting to know about the Mac 'mafia', I don't think the Mac-tans are in it by choice, and they have to follow orders, or at least the OSX-tans do, since the 'protection' doesn't apply as much --or at all-- to the Classic Mac-tans. Speaking of which, I think the Classic Mac-tans have stayed in the House of Mac out of loyalty for the OSX-tans (even though most of the Classic-tans would actually be better suited as Vintage Federation members), and the OSX-tans are grateful but have not experienced any other upbringing aside from the 'protection' they live under so they have to comply with executive orders. :(

Chocofreak13

Quote from: "Nejin Oniwa"
If there's one thing one needs when producing any sort of material, it's order. Chaos plays a big role as well, but things need sorting out a lot more than they need shuffling around.

The hardware mortality is a good idea - especially since in the day of the now, not only do they suffer physical damage and degradation but all the more they become outdated. Thus recent hardware-tans will have to exist in extreme abundance, while very select few have actually aged well and remained "alive" and in use - although the hardware itself might not physically age very quickly, they mature and become obsolete very fast, and don't tend to live very long and/or break down at a young age. Easy fodder for TRAGEDY TRAGEDY TRAGEDY, the transience of hardware is.

OS-tans are wide in kind and number, and differ alot from each other - as natured by the difference in their code and usage of file systems, file types, etc. While software-tans are way more abundant, they always have to order themselves by family of end-user OSes; the caste system idea is a good idea indeed, and I would also like to lobby for conflicts over license usage (GPL vs closed source etc) among the families themselves. The Mac-tans as a supremacist familia of somewhat shut-in ladies and gents protected by Tiger SPs is an idea I endorse here, and only select families of software AND hardware -tans allowed to visit "the mansion"; the classics would most likely be less protected or even uncared for in the older cases, and the younger sisters may be rebellious from case to case - I don't know the Macs that well, though, so maybe leaving it to Aurora/Bella is a good idea in this case.

As for Firmware-tans, I don't know if they are entirely necessary - that'd mean that a classic iPod, for example, would have two -tans: the Hardware part, and the Firmware/OS part (which is the same, afaik) - and the same goes for your everyday gfx card as well. This seems highly redundant to me.

The Vintage-tans are a special case, both in -tan "biology" and capability - they were, after all, the origins, the Homo Erectus of computers, if you will - and and thus they are several of the things at once. It's not blurring the lines, since the lines were pretty much not invented at that time. Their evolution WAS the drawing of lines, so to speak. So rather than the HW-tans being "created" after the OS-tans, they would rather have been distinguished as of a different class than the OS-tans somewhere in the middle of the Vintage-tan evolution from computer-tan to multiple species, and since diverged further.

Some interesting events make for crossroading questions. For example, OS architecture porting (OpenVMS VAX to Alpha and Alpha to Itanium, for example) poses an interesting question. How is this to be considered in the element of the evolution of the OS itself? What is the difference, if any, between XP Pro and XP x64, or Mac OSX PPC and Intel? Is it constant among the differently platformed OSes?


As I'm writing this TL;DR, I realize I should REALLY start working on some OS-Tan fiction as soon as I get my stuff done and ready. Hope for a thread to be revived/rebooted somewhere during the summer, if all goes well. WRITERS READY UP~

Data does not age (kinda). Thus the only two deaths OS-tans (and vintages as well) are susceptible to would be death by complete extinction of all copies, OR the death of all supporting HW-tans (although emulation adds in an idea of possible OS NECROMANCY in this case).

Emulator-tans...now THAT'S a SW-tan class with some pretty big power, there. Necromancers/Spirit mediums much? -w-

Standardization and clarification is needed much here -w-;

At least, if one is aiming for some sort of canon continuity. Some might not. -w-

I meant, if OUR canon is to have some sort of continuity within itself, and not just be a strange assortment of buttcheeks and waffle iron.

Internal Apple Familia oppression...I CAN SMELL THE PLOT. Z:3

Linux-commie idea seems a bit meh to me as well. If for nothing else then the fact that Linux/Torvalds TEH CREATOR is from Finland, one of the few countries in the area to actually manage escaping Sovietification back in the day (and well managing to kick quite a heap of ruski ass in the Winter War), I'd say it'd make for a good attitude against that sort of stuff.

Vintage class of its own is pretty much what I've been thinking but more on that later as this demon has SHITLOADS OF WERK.

Also it'd be more appropriate to continue the OS-volution etc discussion and stuff not related to this IBM topic in Aurora's new thread:[/size]
http://ostan-collections.net/viewtopic.php?t=1238

Aurora Borealis

Thanks for porting the rest of the major discussion over here too! :)

I'm still also trying to work on the Annex Project stuff, and think it'd be easier for me to port all the new stuff from my remake thread into the original which is better-organized, and more prominently displayed but has a lot of obsolete stuff that needs updating.

EDIT: If all the evolution stuff has been ported to this thread, I can delete the original posts in the other thread for cleanup.

Chocofreak13

Quote from: "I"
wow, i actually had to take notes on this. oh lawls.

let's see...

--the apple forbidden from mating with other -tans lends itself a romeo x juliet air in the case of emuii-tan and kyourou-kun, due to the fact that from fandom (and the comic i transcribed myself) has kyourou hopelessly in love with emuii-tan, and emuii returning his feelings to some extent. this makes for a very interesting story, no? :3 (although the only one i would think would be truely angry in the windows sect would be 95-tan; as for the mac side i figure the only ones NOT angry with this pairing would be sonata, apple II, apple I (may she rest in peace), and maybe system1-tan.)

--hardware morality makes sense. it also lends itself to that idea i had about the IBM army--lots of strapping young hardware-kuns charging off to battle with the other hardware types, thus ending their lifespan, leading to only a few straggling survivors in their old age.
-tragedy may be a good motif for this, although WE'D have to make up the parings, as there aren't exactly alot of canon hardware-tans/kuns.
-technically they are the oldest, as TECHNICALLY the first computer was created by ada lovelace, which was pure hardware. we could consider them "the original race", or something. they should at least garner some respect.
-i was going to consider firmware part of the limited "magics" held by the hardware species, but i like your idea MUCH better.

--the os-tans may be the most complex of the species to plan, as most of it is already planned out for us. this SEEMS simpler, but in reality this actually binds us to the set given.
-nej, i like your idea about the mac "famigilia". this is pretty much how i've thought of the macs, so only "elite" software seems to fit this image. i also like the idea of the youngsters being "rebellious", though OSX-tan would probably be a little more traditional than OSX-kun or the OS9 set. (the italian flair also goes with the romeo/juliet thing i mentioned earlier ;D )
-i am wondering what sort of "magics" you meant, considering the software are a class in themselves. explain?
-the windows seem like they would be more laid-back, as with the usual setting for the windows houses, relaxed, japanese, and cozy. they would welcome even unlicenced software with open arms, though vista would ask permission first. xD
-the linux, considering they are rather scattered, seem like they'd be more like an underground group, having secret meetings, like communists in the 1950's. xD they would probably cater to mainly open-source/unlicenced software, and be a bit more stealthy in their dealings. they probably would not get along with other clans, if they got along with themselves.
-OSes are not immortal, if i remember right. i once read that apple 1 died, as did a few others. they might have impressive longevity, maybe even not able to succumb to natural causes (what IS "natural" for an OS??), but they CAN die.

--i like the idea of firmware-tans. i have an art book that reminds me of something that bella said about them:
Quote from: "Bella"ITS CRAZY :V WE SHOULD HAVE A PICNIC AT LAKE WINNIPESAUKEE SOMETIME OR SOMETHING. :V

no, not that, though we should. xD
Quote from: "Bella"they'd probably be the lowest class, but one of the largest, since firmware is used in almost EVERYTHING electronic.

the art book is called "Manga Matrix" (i reccomend it, $25), one of it's purposes is to help people plan stories. one of the samples i really took a shine to (actually helped inspire a potential comic of mine) and i think it would fit here.
the pages are here, here, and here (the third one is just the unreadable text on #2.). I think the stateless people from the story would describe the firmware-tans quite well. (on another note, like the statless people, they are connected with the upper-class whether they like it or not [in this case the hardware-tans].)

--software-tans would most likely be of a lower class than the rest (but not as low as firmware). They are dependent upon OSes for work and purpose, for without OSes, they (technically) do not exist (though with disk-burning, this is subject to speculation). There would likely be 3 classes: Licenced, Unlicenced, and Freeware. (i suppose piracy could come into play as a 4th class, but me thinks they would fall under "unlicenced".) I'm thinking that Certian OSes would only hire certian Software; i'm thinking Mac would mainly hire Licenced (and very few at that), Windows would be equal-oppertunity, and Linux would cater mostly to Freeware.
-Software reminds me of a sort of assistant to OSes, like a boss and secratary (in certian cases).
-Applications and gadgets should fall under this catagory.
-Would malware fall under this catagory?

--I like the evolution theory for Vintage-tans, although this is slightly degrading in addition to being true; if we compare them to evolution, then as the "modern" OSes represent the evolutionary stage of today, Vintage would be farther down on the chain, as early homo sapiens, or perhaps even closer to our primate cousins.

--I vote we start a seperate species for Filetypes, as they are not software, not OS, and not anything else. i can't figure out where to place them, unless we start counting them as the "cells" of the OS, as they make up the OS itself.

also, i made a prototype hierarchy chart based on the one in the book.


hmm, i think i'm done with my arguements.

very cool, thanks aurora-sama. ^^

given that the mac familt sports lisa, OSX, AND 7.5-tan, not to mention a brigade of overprotective catboys and close-minded office execs, the mafioso idea doesn't seem TOO far off.....

considering the vintages are OSes, they would probablyfall under that catagory. but there needs to be some explanations...
1. time warp
2. immortality
3. evolutionary
4. clones
5. suspended animation
6. ????
7. profit

bella: i suppose you're right about the hardware-tans, although for certian computers (and storyline purposes) having an army of clone-puters would be pretty cool.
as for os-volution, there must be SOME hints of it, whether it's a family line or OSes coming from other computers. unix to linux could be considered an os-volution.
i wonder if, for storyline purposes, viruses and malware could "kill" an OS-tan.
(ps. dost thou live in plymouth? :3)

nej: since when is this canon? WE keep the -tans alive now. which means WE make the canon stuff now.

hmm, indeed, there has to be SOME organization. i think that may be what sparked this philosophical conversation of philosophy and os-tan
(or "On the OS-tan of Species").

yes, orginization is needed. but first we need to agree on what is being organized. we have os-tans, software, and hardware as separate species; we all agree on that it seems. i like the idea of firmware and filetypes as separate species as well. does everyone agree? and what to do about vintage-tans?

after that, there's the OS-volution debate. then we could probably start some organizing, cause then we'll know what we're dealing with.

the "hybrids" from long ago could result from a time when OSes were not limited to whom they could reproduce with. An OS could have mated with a Hardware, producing the hybrid. as time moved on, it was considered "forbidden" to mate an OS and a piece of hardware. hybrids should also perhaps (for storyline purposes) be a different class, or maybe treated as outcasts in certian ways, since they are a fusion of what should (by modern standards) not be fused.


(ps. the last paragraph i just wrote, so even if you skip the pre-said stuff you should read that.)

Chocofreak13

np aurora-san.  and update away.

this project is getting big and exciting. ^^ it's making me feel better. ^^

so, people, on the creation of species,  i was going to move for the creation of certian catagories, but i need a question answered first:
are we considering the vintage OSes their own species or just a class of OS?

Bella

Quote from: "Chocofreak13"
are we considering the vintage OSes their own species or just a class of OS?


Depends of the Vintage-tan in question. Some are purely hardware, some are OS-tan, others (like the micros) are hybrid of the two.

Chocofreak13

ok, so the species are still OS, Hardware, Software, Firmware, Hybrid, and Filetype? (no one has disputed me on filetypes so i'm putting it in).

i move for the creation of the following categories of species:
Hardware
Software
Firmware
Operating System
Hybrids
Filetypes

seconded?
all in favor?

NejinOniwa

Hybrid isn't exactly a species. It's a class composed of those with elements of multiple other species. Or what?
YOU COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS

Chocofreak13

i think it deserves it's own species, since it can't fall into either "hardware" or "os".

well? yay or nay? :\

Bella

It's a fusion of two (or possibly more?) different species... just like a mule isn't considered its own species, but a cross of horse and donkey. So they're both hardware and OS-tan or program-tan.

But I guess you could say it's its own species for the sake of organisation...

I suppose file type should be a kind of -tan. Hardwares, of course, could be split us further into different sub-categories: actual computers, peripherals, storage devices, etc. but I'd rather not do that now.